Mustafa Dzemilev is 80. An exclusive interview about Crimea, Putin and the future near Russia

When we enter his office, Mustafa Dzhemilev is watching "Russia-24"—in response to our surprised looks, the leader of the Crimean Tatar people explained that he always watches the enemy's work.

We are treated to Ottoman coffee, and Mr. Dzhemilev jokes about Vyacheslav Chornovil and himself. Then, he recalls 15 years of Soviet imprisonment and how he first returned to Crimea.

Behind the jokes, you can see a barely noticeable longing. After all, after so many years, he [Mr. Dzhemilev - Ed.] was forced to leave his homeland again due to the annexation of Crimea by the Russians.

Ukraine's mistakes and the conversation with Putin

It is very often that you are introduced and called as a leader and a symbol of the Crimean Tatar people. How do you accept this?

Firstly, not as a symbol, but as a leader of the Crimean Tatar people.

We have the Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar people, democratically elected for a five-year term. But it so happened that from 1991 to 2013, almost a quarter of a century, I headed the Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar people.

I resigned in 2013. I would not have left if I had known that there would be an occupation [of Crimea]. Because, from my point of view, there were some mistakes. But after Refat Chubarov had already been elected as a Chairman of the Mejlis, he suddenly shouted: “And now we give a floor to the leader of the Crimean Tatar people!” This is how things have already gone.

The fate of the Crimean Tatars is a constant struggle and challenges. Unfortunately, a lot of people in the world and Ukraine got to know more after 2014. But still, how do you remember that native Crimea to which you want to return? What is it for you?

You know, after gaining independence Ukraine did something, helped in the return of our people to our historical homeland, which we had been struggling for almost half of a century after the deportation [in 1944]. But unfortunately, Ukraine has made a lot of mistakes.

It did not recognize legitimate elected and democratically elected systems of national self-government - Qurultay and Mejlis. It [Ukraine] did nothing against the actions of these separatist organizations.

The myths presented by Russia were repeated that the Crimean Tatars would create a second Chechnya, and then they began to talk about a second Kosovo. That is, such a danger allegedly came from the Crimean Tatars.

And most importantly, Ukraine has not restored the national territorial autonomy of the Crimean Tatar people. And so, it created this autonomy, which was essentially Russian autonomy. All power structures consisted of Russian chauvinists and secret FSB officers. The Crimean Tatars turned out to be second-class on their land.

Until the very last moment, the chairman of the Council of Ministers was the ardent Russian chauvinist Mogilev, who openly in the press justified the genocide and deportation of the Crimean Tatars. 

But after the events of 2014, the view of the Crimean Tatars was utterly different both in Ukrainian society and who is in power. Because in this atmosphere of betrayal and cowardice, only the Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar people declared to the whole world that it did not recognize the occupation: “Crimea is the territory of Ukraine and get out”.

Therefore, Ukraine has already begun to accept documents related to restoring the rights of the Crimean Tatar people.

It is crucial that on July 1, 2021, President Zelenskyy signed the law "On Indigenous Peoples of Ukraine". We have been pushing this law for 30 years but without success. It was only under President Zelenskyy that this became possible.

But I remember well that as soon as Russian troops began to enter Crimea, Ahtem Chiygoz, the current deputy of the Verkhovna Rada, brought me a list of about three thousand Crimean Tatars, and they were ready to take up arms and begin military actions.

And when I had a telephone conversation with Putin, it was March 12. And from the entire discussion, I realized that he didn’t really count that we would accept the occupation; he only hoped that there would be neutrality. He said directly: “I hope that there will be no bloody clashes between the Crimean Tatars and our armed forces in Crimea.”

I can say that this is not violence to defend your rights in your state. And when someone else’s boot steps on your land, this is an entirely different principle.

But we, as citizens of Ukraine, will act as our leadership decides”. I was personally sure that an appeal would be heard from Kyiv: “To arms, citizens!” but this did not sound.

Getting back to your conversation with Putin. If you analyze that conversation, would it have happened anyway? Would this phone call have affected the course of history?

If I, let us say, had agreed to an agreement with Putin, the Crimean Tatars would have said: “Well, we had one leader, but he also turned out to be a scumbag.”

And they would have said it correctly because we have a very good historical memory. And we don't want to agree to become a part of the Russian empire again, which throughout history all that it did was make mischief against our people and destroy our people. No one would accept it between us.

That’s why I know my people; therefore, I answer in a way our people will accept.

The Russians do everything to make the Crimean Tatars leave Crimea

After the end of school, you tried to enter the Mid-Asian State University, but you couldn't do it because of the restriction to accept Crimean Tatars to university. Now, it is the same, but on the native land of the Crimean Tatars. How does the Russian Federation destroy the future of the Crimean Tatars, regarding this pressure, education and culture?

First of all, this is, of course, the education system. Seven Ukrainian schools had been shut down in Crimea.

According to my information, somewhere there, in my opinion, are 137 people studying Ukrainian as an option. The Ukrainian gymnasium was there, where it was possible to open a department of Ukrainian study. But there, when parents submit an application from their parents that they would like their children to learn the Ukrainian language, FSB officers first come and say; ‘Do you really expect that Crimea will become Ukrainian again?’. That’all, those are undisguised threads. 

They did not dare to close the Crimean Tatar schools, there were 14 schools, and they remained. But they completely perverted their program.

Nominally, they just started, so to speak, in Crimean Tatar, but basically everything is in Russian. And it has completely lost its attractiveness because they force children to sing the Russian anthem in the morning, hold Russian flags, and if they do something wrong, then their parents get harassed

In a word, russification is well underway, and there are no breakthroughs in this direction.

I remembered one such case when in the Karasubazar region, which is called Bilogorski region in Russian, one of the parents came to the principal and said:" Why not open Crimean Tatar language classes, since we have so many applications?”.

An FSB officer was sitting there and saying with laughter: “Another ten years will pass, and you will forget what the Crimean Tatar language is’.

But there are no prospects for the indigenous people, and they cannot exist under the Russian government. They created the conditions to make the Crimean Tatars leave Crimea and import Russian citizens en masse.

According to our estimates, they have imported at least a million people since the beginning of 2014. People just say when you’re walking down the street there, there are completely different faces; you just don’t see the old residents at all.

And what does the resistance of the Crimean Tatars look like now, despite all the intimidation and actions of Russia? What is the current attitude in Crimea?

You know, of course, no one can openly express their attitude there. Let's say, if you take a microphone and walk through the streets of Simferopol and ask; “How was it better for you — in Ukraine or now?”. Then the person, of course, understands perfectly well what needs to be said

Because if you say “in Ukraine”, then on the same day, there will be a conversation with the FSB. Therefore, people will either try to avoid it, brush it off somehow, or they will say, "Thanks to Putin, we've finally been living so well."

As for this propaganda, it is really a very massive kind of propaganda. All these accesses with rational information, including the Internet, a lot of websites are closed, but the main thing is that the FSB clearly monitors who goes to which website. And these people are put on record.

Therefore, people know which websites are safe to visit and which are dangerous. Therefore, this process of duping is quite effective.

This does not apply to the Crimean Tatars because the worldview of the Crimean Tatars is usually formed in families. In Soviet times, the Crimean Tatars were considered to have the most anti-Soviet sentiments

So I'm not particularly afraid. Although of course, there is a young generation there and those people who were seven years old are now already 17 years old, and all these people were under the pressure of propaganda. To some extent, it will probably be reflected in their worldview.

Is it correct that the secret training and work of the Russian FSB in Crimea was long before 2014, before the annexation?

The CIA reported that this was not only Crimea. But Crimea, of course, is a special region. In general, all government structures, especially the SSU, the Ministry of Defense, and the presidential apparatus were more than 30% filtered by Russian agents.

There, in Crimea, we were under crossfire, that the SSU was watching us, did some nasty things, and the FSB as well.

But the cleaning up began, of course, after the proclamation of independence, indeed, but especially after the Revolution of Dignity.

In reality, I think that Ukraine became independent precisely after 2014 when a radical cleansing of the entire apparatus began.

Zelenskyy and the law "On the status of the Crimean Tatar people"

You’ve mentioned before a series of mistakes that Ukraine made about Crimea. But, in any way, how can we immediately start fixing it despite the full-scale war still going?

The first step in this direction has already been taken, thanks to President Zelenskyy. A law "On Indigenous Peoples of Ukraine" was adopted by his initiative. There are two more documents left.

In April, when President Zelenskyy gave iftar [evening meal after evening prayer during the month of Ramadan - ed.] to the Muslim warriors, we sat opposite each other and talked. He has such a readiness, at least, to initiate the adoption of a law on the status of the Crimean Tatar people. We have just submitted this project to the Venice Commission, and we’re waiting for this response.

But as for changes to the Constitution, it is believed that in times of war, the Constitution cannot be changed. But if this law about the status is passed, that will also be a big deal.

This will be a great incentive for the indigenous people because we have been achieving this for all the years since our people returned to their homeland. It will significantly facilitate the reintegration of Crimea into Ukraine as a state.

Crimea is a convenient military foothold for Putin

What is the price of Crimea for Russia? What else is Putin ready to do to prevent Crimea from becoming free?

Well, actually, the seizure of Crimea, although Putin says that it has sacred significance for them, is not entirely true. For Putin, it was a military foothold, a convenient military foothold.

And it was really used from the first day of the invasion of Crimea when such increased militarization began.

All these great construction projects, such as the Crimean Bridge and the Tavrida highway, have mainly military significance. And this was the springboard for the further jump.

We said that this is a threat to the whole of Ukraine. President Zelenskyy has a very correct position regarding the fact that the war began in Crimea and it should end with the liberation of Crimea.

Because without the liberation of Crimea, there will be constant threats to the Ukrainian state, not to mention the fate of the Crimean Tatar people.

According to sociological surveys in Ukraine, more than 80% say that there can be no peace until the last square centimeter of the territory of Ukraine is completely liberated, including, of course, Crimea.

You’ve mentioned that the Crimean Bridge and certain other actions in the past became a kind of “further jump” for Putin. But if we talk about the present, what can this “jump” be for him now and what does this person plan next?

If we manage to cut through this corridor, block it from the Melitopol side and blow up the Crimean Bridge, then the invaders will be in the kill zone.

They are left with two alternatives — either surrender or go to the “Kobzon’s concert” [to become dead], as they say. But now, as far as I know, today there was even a statement from the Defence Intelligence of Ukraine that everything is ready, we can destroy the bridge at any time, but we will do it when we need it.

When it is appropriate, we will do so. Maybe Rustem Umierov [the Minister of Defense of Ukraine] will make me a gift.

About the Minister of Defense Rustem Umierov

Rustem Umierov. You know the new Minister of Defense very well. Does he share his experiences and plans with you? After all, in his new post, he now faces a crucial task and many challenges, which perhaps his predecessors did not have.

You know yet he’s a civilian” but after this full-scale invasion, he was closely involved in military issues, involved in the supply of weapons. Now he understands these weapons no worse than our generals.

I know that he developed many operations together with the Defence Intelligence of Ukraine (DIU). He is also appreciated at the DIU. Therefore, I think, in this regard, the choice is good.

But it is more successful politically because it demonstrates what kind of state we have. The President is a Jew, and the Minister of Defense is a Crimean Tatar. That is, the narrative that Russian propaganda is trying to impose on the world, that there are ultra-Nazis here, is simply being eroded.

And this is a very big, as I already said, moral support for those who are in Crimea now.

It inspires confidence that the issue of de-occupation of Crimea is a temporary issue. It will never be removed from the agenda.

But yesterday I had an argument with Rustem to the hoarse. He said: “When we start entering Crimea, I will enter there. I will resign from my post.” He said, “I cannot send people to death while I’m here. I should be the first one there.”

I say: “Listen, nobody does like this nowadays.” “No, it’s a matter of morality. I should be there,” he replied. “Okay, then I’ll be by your side too.” We agreed on this.

The attitudes of the Russian occupiers and the liberation of Crimea

Let's talk about the attitude of the occupiers in Crimea. We know that a few months ago, they dug trenches on the coast, fled alone and took their families away. But now, when the special operations of the DIU in Crimea became known, and the number of explosions increased in Crimea, what is the mood?

Well, you know, the people there are also different: some are happy about these explosions, while others are concerned. These officials themselves are strictly forbidden to travel, but little by little they send their families because they understand.

I know many collaborators who are looking for housing outside of Crimea, in particular in the Krasnodar region there. They understand that after returning to Ukraine, they simply will not be able to live there. There is such an atmosphere.

But such massive propaganda, if you count their websites, their Crimea-24 channel, like everything is fine, everything is going well, there is no threat.

And does this propaganda affect the world's understanding of what is currently happening in Crimea?

Well, it depends. You know, there are such fanatics of the “Russian world”. No arguments work on them. But the vast majority, of course, already understands.

But these shellings, I think, are very important. I don’t know how strategically, but in general, of course, before entering the territory of Crimea, it is necessary to liquidate all military objects there. And there are about 147 or about 160 bases and military airfields. And then only to enter. Then it will be easier.

But our compatriots keep asking what to do in this situation. I definitely tell them to stay away from these military facilities because we will mainly strike on these facilities. When their military infrastructure is completely destroyed, then it will be easier to enter.

Initially, we proceeded from the fact that we would de-occupy Crimea through peaceful diplomatic means. We have the concept of the NSDC, adopted in March 2021

It clearly stated that the emphasis was on strengthening sanctions and diplomatic paths. Even after the full-scale invasion, there were negotiations between the Russian and Ukrainian delegations: first on the border with Belarus and then in Istanbul.

Even then, the Ukrainian side proposed a peace plan. We conveyed the proposal that was made in Istanbul in written form. It was said that Ukraine proposed that the Russians would withdraw to the border until February 24, 2022, [and] the issue of status and Crimea should be resolved diplomatically, starting the negotiation process. During these negotiations, Ukraine did not use force.

That is, even then we were talking about a peace plan. But after the Russian side returned to Crimea, literally the next day, Putin said that there could be no negotiations about Crimea because this “is a Russian territory”.

After the atrocities were revealed there in Irpin and Bucha, President Zelenskyy very rightly admitted that there could be no more negotiations with Russia with Putin's regime. Now, unfortunately, the focus is only on military liberation. But there is no other way out.

The media often called and continues to call the opinion that the end of a full-scale war should begin precisely with the liberation of Crimea.

Firstly, it will facilitate the complete liberation of Crimea. And secondly, it is simply impossible to talk about the end of the war before the liberation of Crimea. Because this is the crucial moment of this war.

But once again Putin is blatantly lying. There was once a delegation of African countries. And he says, without blinking an eye, he holds his hand aside like this: "Here," he says, "is an agreement with the Ukrainians to end the war. But the Ukrainians trampled on this agreement and began military action."

He was talking about the proposals that we gave, and he rejected them. Well, that's the kind of person. And he opens his mouth only to lie.

I know many liars in history, many such unsuccessful politicians. But such a level of liar has never ever existed.

Crimean Tatars at the Armed Forces of Ukraine and partisans

We know about the struggle of the Crimean Tatars in the Armed Forces of Ukraine. It is the Noman Çelebicihan Battalion and the “Crimea” volunteer battalion. Russian propaganda touched even this. How do Russian propagandists portray the Crimean Tatars who are fighting for freedom with arms on the side of Ukraine?

Well, firstly, these people try not to appear in the press anywhere because, of course, they all have relatives. Therefore, make a list of how many Crimean Tatars there are; even if it had been on the list, we would not have published it because it is a threat to relatives. And so, quite a lot, of course.

Then, what can you tell about the "ATESH" movement?

I wouldn't say anything even if I knew. It is very profoundly conspiratorial, so there is no information. They provide no more information about it.

Return of Crimean political prisoners

Tell me, at what stage is the issue of the return of Crimean political prisoners now? Are lists still being formed? And how much more difficult did this process become with the start of a full-scale war in Ukraine?

At President Zelenskyy's request, the commanders of the Azov battalion were allowed to return. And Putin seemed very angry about it and, therefore, did not discuss the exchange issue further.

When I spoke with the [local] Minister of Foreign Affairs in Turkey, I mentioned how it happened that Erdogan agreed to return our commanders.

He says: "I was present at this conversation. When Zelenskyy asked to allow them to return, Erdogan turned to me and said: "Do we have any written agreements with the Russians that they should stay?" I said, "No, there was just a conversation that it would be desirable for them to stay until the war's end”. "Oh, well, then let them turn back," [said Erdogan]. That's how the issue was resolved."

It seems it made Putin very angry. Nevertheless, as far as I know, the lists are still being updated there.

We are talking not only about the exchange of prisoners of war but also the exchange of political prisoners. However, there is a concept that civilians are not exchanged for military ones. But this is nonsense; if Putin wants, he can change it.

Let's say we exchanged 200 of our prisoners of war for Medvedchuk. Therefore, if Putin wants, it is doable.

This issue is excruciating for us, and relatives constantly call and ask. And the conditions of their detention are simply terrifying, and they are much worse than under the Soviet regime. These pressures, these bullying, horrific conditions, and all of them are sent very far from Crimea. It is a clear violation of international norms, but the Russians continue torturing [people].

And if we ask about the international organizations, [then] it seems they can’t influence this [situation] anyhow, can they?

Now, everyone believes so and knows very well what the Russian Federation is. Moreover, here on the Internet, information is very accessible to everyone in the West, and therefore, for them, it no longer matters so much.

So, there is no place to put a stamp in this country. Thus, one accusation is better than another, so for them, it does not matter.

What is needed here are more radical actions which can have an impact. It is strengthening sanctions in all directions.

During our conversation, you have repeatedly mentioned Erdogan and Turkey. What is the role of Turkey in this [Russo-Ukrainian] war in your opinion?

Turkey sees itself as a mediator; it would like to take on the role of a mediator. And nothing more. There is such a significant infiltration of Russian propaganda.

Well, for example, in Turkey, I often have to hear that the West is inflating this war. But I ask — how does it inflate? "Well, if the West had not supplied weapons to Ukraine, the war would have ended long ago." And at the same time, very serious people such as deputies are saying that.

I say: "Do you understand what you are talking about? Now, if they didn't give us weapons, Russia would occupy our country. Do you want that?" "Well, no, if there were no supplies..." This is, unfortunately, the position.

Therefore, in the first days, when the large-scale occupation began, I came to Turkey. All the time, through all these Turkish channels, I tried to tell how, what, and why.

 But there is a lot of work to be done in this area because the infiltration of this hostile propaganda is robust there. However, the overwhelming majority of the Turkish people are anti-Russian.

Deoccupation of Crimea and the future life next to Russia

How difficult will the de-occupation of Crimea be?

I think there shouldn’t be any significant difficulties because the air there in Crimea will be cleaner. Because everyone who entered illegally, more than a million people, would be forced to leave [the peninsula] one way or another.

The collaborators, all these pro-Russian organizations, will also leave Crimea to avoid legal retribution. Therefore, I think the reintegration will happen very fast if the laws that I mentioned are adopted and quickly implemented. 

But whether Crimea is to be completely demilitarised, it will depend on what kind of neighbour we have. If the Putin regime, or one similar to it, continues to save, then I think it’s necessary to maintain a mighty naval base there.

And if everything develops differently, then it is possible, of course, that there would be nothing military there.

But how should we behave with this neighbour in the future? We understand that Russia will not cease to exist anyway. It will be in one form or another. What do we need to do to secure ourselves and prevent a repeat of the war?

When Putin and I talked about this, I told him, from the first words: “Mr. Putin, I did not come here to give you any advice. You have hundreds of advisors. I came as a representative of the indigenous people to tell my point of view. You are making a big mistake; you are spoiling relations between our countries for many years.”

He told me in response: “Wait another four days. There will be a referendum on March 16. We will find out the will of the People.”

I said, “You understand that no one will recognize your referendum. It contradicts international law and, most importantly, internal Ukrainian legislation. In our country, a different referendum is held throughout the country and should be held if it concerns the territory of Ukraine. And the Crimean Tatar people, the indigenous people of Crimea, represented by the Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar people, have already decided to boycott your referendum.” He [spoke] again.

So, what I mean is that sanctions for the Russian Federation will never be dropped until Crimea is liberated.

Any government that comes to replace Putin, that is, even if it is worse than Putin’s, will think that if it wants the advancement of its country and some progress for its state, it is necessary to liberate the occupied territories.

There is simply no other way. The other path is the path of non-existence, the transformation of Russia into a huge North Korea, although it is already taking significant steps in this direction.

One way or another, Crimea will be liberated. There is simply no other way out if Russia does not want to sign its death penalty.

The warmest memory of Mustafa Dzhemilev from Crimea

Let's talk about something good... Can you tell about your warmest or strongest memory from Crimea, from your homeland?

I remember the first time I came to Crimea. It was after the jail in 1973.

We were on a plane from Tashkent with one girl. It turned out she was from Crimea. She spoke very vividly about the delights of Crimea: the sea, beauty, all that. I listened silently. 

In the airport, she said "This is our Simferopol. Well, how do you like our Simferopol?" Oh, and then she also told me about her anxiety. She said that only recently did Crimean Tatars begin to come. But our authorities are expelling them; otherwise, if they come, they will start to take away their houses. And we live in a Tatar house. That was such a fear.

I was silent, listened, and when she said: "Well, how do you like our Simferopol?" I said: "Nothing, but how do you like our Crimea?" She's so surprised.

I said: "I am a representative of the indigenous people; I am a Crimean Tatar. Don't worry: we won't take away your house, live comfortably. We will build new ones."

It was my first visit after the occupation of Crimea, after deportation. And I finally arrived only in 1989. When I arrived, there was already a second front of the national movement. That is where it all started, then step by step.

We have just begun to build our national life, and now there is a new occupation. I got ready to retire in 2013. I thought I would care for my grandchildren, but Putin did not let me retire.

The appeal to the Crimean Tatars

What would you say to the Crimean Tatars who are currently in the territory of Crimea under the occupation of Russia?

I would say one thing. First of all, I address men first. We are all fathers. And your children and grandchildren will someday ask you: “Dad, grandfather, what did you do when enemies occupied our land?” And you have to make yourself so as not to blush in front of these children.

Everyone must contribute. Expecting that only others will do something and you will live in a free Crimea is wrong. Everyone should do what they can. This is our duty.

Thank you. We know that Crimea will be free soon. And we hope that everything the Crimean Tatars are experiencing now or experienced before will never happen again.

The online.ua team expresses its sincere thanks to the Crimean Tatar Resource Center and its Head of the Board, Mr. Eskender Bariiev, for their help in organizing the interview.